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Internazionale in a Pre-Season Friendly.
Saturday 20th July 2019, KO 12:30 BST.
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raycreative
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Re: Pre/Post Match Discussion: Premier League vs Watford (h)

Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:50 pm

Dave
Despite having a personal attack on me you still did not tell me what sort of supporter you consider you are or what you thought of the neutral well written report in the Sunday Mail
Are you a game going supporter.Are you an armchair supporter.I suspect that answer will reveal some of why you feel about the way you do
You clearly either think all is well or all is going in the right direction.If that is correct then you re clearly disillusioned
If you don't think that and genuinely see this club for what it has become then grow a pair and say so
You have completely misread or misunderstood my opinions of the managers
They all did the best they could
Moyes was not good enough but that was not his fault.The club was just too big for him
LVG asked for a 2 year contract but Ed Woodward and presumably the Glazers demanded 3.They then fired him via TV right after he won the cup.They didn't have the balls to tell him face to face.They gave him his third and fourth choice players(his worfd not mine)
In comes Jose.They let him down by not getting him "One of 5 names i gave Mr Woodward"-His words not mine
Oliver Holt says it correctly.If Ed Woodward was a football man and not a money man he would have got the bullet
the fact he is about still tells you all you need to know about this clubs priorities
You might not see or accept that.After all some idiots think Trump is a great man and a great president creating jobs and doing a great job for America.
So i will go and support the team when i am lucky enough to get a ticket.
You presumably just change channel



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Sigmar
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Re: Pre/Post Match Discussion: Premier League vs Watford (h)

Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:59 pm

Depending on who you choose to believe the club have spent verging on £600m on players since Ferguson went upstairs, in 2013, that amounts to £100m each season ( on average), how much should we have spent if that is not enough ?
A quote is that players have been bought for commercial reasons :
Scweinstiger £14m
Zlatan Free
Falcao £6m

Hardly record busting deals !
As for commercialism, in the July to September of 2015 a certain Memphis Depay beat Schweinstiger on shirt sales
Zlatans Shirt sales reported paid for Pogba, Is that a bad thing ?
Falcao sold less that Di Maria.....but he doesn't get a mention.

Commercialism these days is a part of football, without it we would be DIv 4 outfit, the matchday profit doesn't even pay DDG's wages, so money has to be made in other ways, I have to accept that, and other fans should accept it too.

We criticise the midfield, but would they be better if they wre not always looking over their shoulder to cover a full back who should have been shipped out years ago, would our centre back pairing be better if they did have to have one eye on the RH side all the time ?


Life is what you have to put up with when you are not dead

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raycreative
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Re: Pre/Post Match Discussion: Premier League vs Watford (h)

Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:49 am

Sigmar wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:59 pm
Depending on who you choose to believe the club have spent verging on £600m on players since Ferguson went upstairs, in 2013, that amounts to £100m each season ( on average), how much should we have spent if that is not enough ?
A quote is that players have been bought for commercial reasons :
Scweinstiger £14m
Zlatan Free
Falcao £6m

Hardly record busting deals !
As for commercialism, in the July to September of 2015 a certain Memphis Depay beat Schweinstiger on shirt sales
Zlatans Shirt sales reported paid for Pogba, Is that a bad thing ?
Falcao sold less that Di Maria.....but he doesn't get a mention.

Commercialism these days is a part of football, without it we would be DIv 4 outfit, the matchday profit doesn't even pay DDG's wages, so money has to be made in other ways, I have to accept that, and other fans should accept it too.

We criticise the midfield, but would they be better if they wre not always looking over their shoulder to cover a full back who should have been shipped out years ago, would our centre back pairing be better if they did have to have one eye on the RH side all the time ?
Commercialism is part of the game.
Of course i accept that
But in United's case it is the ONLY part of the game they put any credit to

You have proven that for me with your information
Scweinsteiger,Zlatan,Falcoa,you claim, were not record bursting delas
They were not money wise but what they did do was hold up the development of a top class centre forward that would be around as a key part of a successful team for years
LVG told us that last week
He was given third or 4th choice players.
He told you that they never replaced RVP and as a result he had to move Rooney to number 9 even though his best position was number 10
Top teams replace top players in advance with a like for like policy
That is why the worlds best look like they will be around for ever

I disagree that Zlatans shirt sales paid for Pogba.
Zlatans shirt sales paid for Zlatans erormous salary
As did Falcao as did Sweinsteiger
LVG told us in the interview that he didn't want them."They were injured when they came"
So that begs the question yet again who signed them and why?

LVG admitted that Di Maria was a mistake.His mistake

You sound like you think it is a good thing to have ageing failing players changeing position to try to survive another season or two in what are key positions
That is a money saving exercise only
It stops team development
Valencia should not have been around so long.There should have been a Kyle Walker type buy
Giggs should not have been around so long after his legs had gone.There should have been a world class proven winger bought.We still don't have a top class winger
Carrick should have been replaced 3 years ago.We have held on to Mata and Herrara for 3 years too long.City go out and buy the likes of David Dilna and de Bruyne.And when they "start" moving towards the end they will be replaced in advance

Jones and Smalling have improved under Ole from dreadful to average.Why were we not in for van Dyke?
I fear for the defence this month with Barca and City coming.Don't you

If i accept that we have spent £600m on players since SAF went upstairs i say that is not close to enough
In those 6 or so years that works out at an average of about £100m a year
In the current market that is about the cost of one player
The worlds best forwards and midfielders cost more than that and the worlds best defenders cost a bit less.Mbappe at £170m and van Dijk at £70m prove that
We have needed to replace our entire team,with the exception of DDG so we needed to have replaced 10 first teamers
That could have cost us £1 billion and that is giving no mention of a back up squad and a youth development team that has been dismantled by these owners
If £1 billion sounds stupid can you tell me how much has been made over the last 7 years and how much the Glazers might have had and then honestly try to tell me we could not afford £1 billion.
I suspect we could easily have afforded that and the team would still be at the top level and the Glazers would have had a lot of money and the value would STILL have been in the club long term
A fair balancing act is all i ask
What we have is a club that cost nothing being milked totally and consistently at the expense of the long term life of the team
We saw it at Blackpool,we saw it at Portsmouth and Glasgow Rangers and Hearts and until the current owners came along at Liverpool



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raycreative
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Re: Pre/Post Match Discussion: Premier League vs Watford (h)

Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:10 am

And just to sum all the above up AND be fair to Ole and even to be fair to the Glazers this is the way i see the current state of play
If we can keep DDG and Pogba we need
one right back-budget £50m
at least one centre half short term and possibly two longer-Budget £75m for one(or £150m for two)
replacements for Mata and Herrara(budget £150m) AND spend the money you save on Sanchez.He needs to go now
a world class winger-budget £100-£125m
A Harry Kane type centre forward(budget £100-125m) and spend the money you save on Lukaku who needs to go now

That's about £350m gross but you get money back on Sanchez and Lukaku and a massive saving on their wages so not a stupid ask
And if Pogba and DDG go you need to spend that money as well

Over to you the owners and Matt Judge



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Re: Pre/Post Match Discussion: Premier League vs Watford (h)

Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:53 am

Ray:

You have a fair point that I got too heated, which was not my original intention, so apologies for that.

As for what sort of supporter I am, I am not going to get into a Sid and Doris Bonkers competition about it.

I am simply pointing out that supporters support, although not of course without criticism or cavil.

But an unremitting diet of negativity about everything from the owners down to the individual players is hardly support but more symptomatic of a frustrated love affair!

We have to accept that all of us are less than perfect, and any hero worship should recognise that of course they have feet of clay, and will fall short.

That does not mean that they should be condemned completely.

I agree for instance that Woodward made a complete mess of the succession to SAF.

But that has to be mitigated by the fact that they were never trying to do a Chelsea, and plonk in someone for a season or two and change them like old socks,

They were trying to establish a new dynasty, but unfortunately footballing genius's who fit in with our philosophy were not to hand.

As for what I would like to see, I would much prefer a gradual build up, rather than a rush to get super stars in.

Our form since Ole has taken over puts us in contention, at least theoretically, but I would prefer to see a two or even three year plan with the emphasis on getting players who will share our idea of how to play the game than a win or bust rush next season.

So I don't want Bale, but reckon we may have a shout of getting Calum Hudson-Odoi who is still bench warming under Sarri.

To end on a positive note, I do appreciate your knowledge of football Ray, I just wish you would take a leaf from Ole's book and stay largely positive, whilst recognising our weaknesses.

As Ole said, the dressing room was like a funeral after our win over Watford, and he was pleased about that, as the players recognised how poor they had been!

So lets try to make even realistic acknowledgement of shortcomings a recognition that it gives us a chance to improve.

We are a pretty lethal counter attacking side now, at least, whereas by the end of the Jose reign we were more like a plate of cold porridge!



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raycreative
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Re: Pre/Post Match Discussion: Premier League vs Watford (h)

Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:16 pm

Dave
Explanation accepted

It is indeed the fact that we both love this club so much that leads to the frustration

My rants are not against everyone from the owners down to evrybody including the players
It is ALL against the owners and by descriiption everything they touch is based on profit and they don't give a shit about the past,present or long term future of this club

I don't blame a player for being bought and/or being overawed or not good enough to challenge for top honours
I blame the club for buying him

I totally disagree that the managers buy all of the players
They have some input in some of the buys but most of the input has now been confirmed by ex managers LVG and Jose
LVG say they gave him 3rd or 4th choice
Jose gave 5 name and got none

I am aware that you ca't get everybody you want but to get none needs an explanation
I don't blame Falcao,Sweinsteiger or Zlatan for coming for a year for the money but they should never have been in the frame when players like Griezmann,Mbappe,van Dijk etc are moving around
All of that is the owners and shirt selling

Yes we don't want Bale,We did 4 years ago but now he is injury prone and probably past his best
But can you be sure he won't come in some sort of swap deal involving Pogba or DDG
Ole has said today he wants Pogba to stay and Pogba is happy
What would be said by anybody,you included if Pogba was part of a swap or straight sale?
The above is not negative.t is what if and i hope we don't have to discuss it but if we do i bet Woodward will get little shit and Pogba will be labelled a greedy bastard

So what is happening to Herrara.Is he going or is he staying?
Is he to be replaced.
Same question with Mata
Who is making those decisions?
Ole,Ed Woodward,Matt Judge or the Glazers?There is nobody else

So it is wait and see.For the 4th manger and 6th year running.They can't all be arseholes can they?
What happens if we start next season with no improvement,still playing hang on football without 4 or 5 players but with the coffers overflowing with pre season tour money plus TV and sponsor money and having been "unlucky" yet again in the transfer market
Whose fault will that be.The answer will come from the "I never wanted Ole" brigade and you won't hear anything from the club other than"book your Xmas party early"



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