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Mike
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Re: The 3-5-2 System

Thu Jan 15, 2015 4:43 pm

ArizonaRed wrote:I also expect a lot of changes over the next few transfer windows but that doesn't mean that 3-5-2 is right for the current squad.
I don't think the system is right for the Prem League. In, for argument's sake, Italy - it's fine. Because the game is slower out there and CBs are given time to bring the ball out from the back.

This isn't the case in England. And I thought a man of LVG's intelligence would have figured this out by now.



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Re: The 3-5-2 System

Thu Jan 15, 2015 6:12 pm

ArizonaRed wrote:I also expect a lot of changes over the next few transfer windows but that doesn't mean that 3-5-2 is right for the current squad.
I didn't say it was. Clearly it isn't.


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Re: The 3-5-2 System

Fri Jan 16, 2015 2:30 am

Colin Francis wrote:Is not the answer for what? The best team in europe over the last ten years have employed it, Bayern who swept all before them last year employed it, Liverpool who are playing better quality football than us are employing it? We have not played the best football for a good part of 5 years or so and we've always been outdone by european teams tactically. We've been winning ugly and I for one have always been outspoken about how we play and not the results. I admit it's ugly at the moment but we don't have the personnel, that's it! Patience!

NB: I'm not stuck on any one formation, I just want to see some wingplay and fast flowing football!
why would i care about how bayern or other teams do when employing 3-5-2? I meant 3-5-2 is not the answer FOR US. some folks have pointed to our lack of players capable of doing the tasks associated with 3-5-2, but there's no real need to find reasons. we've done the experiment and we have seen the outcome. performances over the 15 games or so we've played 3-5-2 have simply not been good.

yes we havent played good football for years, but with the players we have now, for the first time in years, we have a chance to play real good entertaining football AND get some good results. 3-5-2 is not doing the job.



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Re: The 3-5-2 System

Fri Jan 16, 2015 3:54 am

Maverick McKillshark wrote:There's nothing inherently wrong with 3-5-2. Many teams play it with great success.

.
We dont


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Re: The 3-5-2 System

Fri Jan 16, 2015 6:04 am

...is what I said.


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Re: The 3-5-2 System

Fri Jan 16, 2015 6:58 am

Sia wrote:
Colin Francis wrote:Is not the answer for what? The best team in europe over the last ten years have employed it, Bayern who swept all before them last year employed it, Liverpool who are playing better quality football than us are employing it? We have not played the best football for a good part of 5 years or so and we've always been outdone by european teams tactically. We've been winning ugly and I for one have always been outspoken about how we play and not the results. I admit it's ugly at the moment but we don't have the personnel, that's it! Patience!

NB: I'm not stuck on any one formation, I just want to see some wingplay and fast flowing football!
why would i care about how bayern or other teams do when employing 3-5-2? I meant 3-5-2 is not the answer FOR US. some folks have pointed to our lack of players capable of doing the tasks associated with 3-5-2, but there's no real need to find reasons. we've done the experiment and we have seen the outcome. performances over the 15 games or so we've played 3-5-2 have simply not been good.

yes we havent played good football for years, but with the players we have now, for the first time in years, we have a chance to play real good entertaining football AND get some good results. 3-5-2 is not doing the job.
I would care if I were you. The teams on top are the ones getting it right. Utd did not become the most supported club in the world because they happened to be located in Manchester. Fast, attacking wingplay was the name of the game since...well ask Ray-he'll tell you.

Some are asking for that Mourinho 4-3-3 brand of football at Chelsea- i for one don't want that ugly shit anywhere close to Utd.

If you read my initial post, IMO, we dont have the central midfielders for any other formation as we've seen over the past few years. We've debated how teams started attacking us straight down the middle and now you want to "thin" out the middle even more.

Also, yes we've been a bit shit, but over the last ten games or so, we've really been crap creating and scoring goals. I would rather tweak the combinations up front and Mata will not start in my line-up!


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Re: The 3-5-2 System

Fri Jan 16, 2015 8:25 am

@Colin Francis

It's just a cliche these days in regards to Mourinho's Chelsea playing "ugly football". The current Chelsea team play some very nice stuff, much better than the turgid rubbish we've been serving up.



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Re: The 3-5-2 System

Fri Jan 16, 2015 8:34 am

Mike wrote:@Colin Francis

It's just a cliche these days in regards to Mourinho's Chelsea playing "ugly football".  The current Chelsea team play some very nice stuff, much better than the turgid rubbish we've been serving up.
My wife warned me not watch football with my eyes shut but you're right, I must have read about the Chelsea ugly stuff somewhere!


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Re: The 3-5-2 System

Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:16 am

Utterly clueless with every player not knowing what their job is. It took a forced injury to the worst player at the club this season for us to go back to 4-4-2 and 30 seconds later we score

You would honestly think anyone else in the world would change back to this system and give the old 3-5-2 the old fornicate off never return again but you just know how were going to line up against Leicester in 2 weeks


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Re: The 3-5-2 System

Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:11 am

Colin Francis wrote:
Mike wrote:@Colin Francis

It's just a cliche these days in regards to Mourinho's Chelsea playing "ugly football".  The current Chelsea team play some very nice stuff, much better than the turgid rubbish we've been serving up.
My wife warned me not watch football with my eyes shut but you're right, I must have read about the Chelsea ugly stuff somewhere!
They running over teams with ease while playing good football. I think they only played the ugly stuff against us this season.


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Re: The 3-5-2 System

Sun Jan 18, 2015 12:01 pm

I've never understood the Mourinho 'ugly football' thing. It's just jealousy imo as his teams play superb football.


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Re: The 3-5-2 System

Sun Jan 18, 2015 2:09 pm

Maverick McKillshark wrote:I've never understood the Mourinho 'ugly football' thing. It's just jealousy imo as his teams play superb football.
+1


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Re: The 3-5-2 System

Sun Jan 18, 2015 4:08 pm

Maverick McKillshark wrote:I've never understood the Mourinho 'ugly football' thing. It's just jealousy imo as his teams play superb football.
Probably came from his parking bus team against better opponents like barca.


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Re: The 3-5-2 System

Mon Jan 19, 2015 10:14 am

http://www.espnfc.com/club/manchester-u ... ter-united" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"To a certain extent, if you are getting results, you can get away with it. But it was telling that the stands were mutinous after just one defeat and a couple of draws. Things have progressed since this point last year, but United are not where they want to be yet. Nowhere near, in fact.

While there can be no doubt that Van Gaal has steadied the ship, not every aspect of his performance over the past six months has been flawless. His approach to picking formations and deploying personnel seems incongruous and showy at times. It is also starkly lacking in logic."



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Re: The 3-5-2 System

Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:20 am

I liked this view on the subject:
http://thebusbybabe.sbnation.com/2015/1 ... t-the-back" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



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Re: The 3-5-2 System

Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:28 pm

Merlin wrote:I liked this view on the subject:
http://thebusbybabe.sbnation.com/2015/1 ... t-the-back" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The jist of that is pretty much what I have been saying, he doesn't think our CBs are good enough and if we sign Strootman and a quality CB like Hummels we won't play it anymore.


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Re: The 3-5-2 System

Wed Jan 21, 2015 2:43 pm

Watching us play this sh*t of a system is embarrassing, of course. What I'm even more upset with is playing someone out of position. Let's hope it turns out to be a short-lived experiment. As soon as it starts to occur on a regular basis and affecting more players this team is done, as sad as it sounds.


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Re: The 3-5-2 System

Wed Jan 21, 2015 3:10 pm

Here is a video by Gnev that shows how fornicate poor the system is. I posted my thoughts on 3-5-2 in another thread and I think it was Relly (apologies if not) that said when we have 4 at the back were exposed more and look more vulnerable

IMO, its quite the opposite and to me the best weve looked this year was against Chelsea and City when attacking and chasing the game with a 4 man defence. The same can be said for QPR at home, and away when chasing a goal, home to west ham before the 10 men. You see how much more efficient we are when playing a comfortable system

To me, we have looked good in ONE WHOLE HALF all year with the 3-5-2 and that was the first half vs spurs. The other games we have played in this system have been so fornicate dire its the worst football I have ever seen United play. It makes you long for the days of moyes where we had Mata and Young putting in 93 crosses in a game. At least in that game we created chances that we fornicate blazed over the bar. In 3-5-2 were at max getting 1 chance a game. (1 vs Arsenal, 2 vs Soton away, 0 against them at home)

As for the "our defence is so shit that 3 defenders = 2" I will argue quite the opposite. The reason they look so bad in the 3-5-2 is that they simply dont know what they are meant to be doing and how to play it. They all look fornicate lost. I actually think Chris Smalling has been quite decent this season (bar a 5 minute brain fade at city), the only problem he has is bringing the ball out of defence and making key passes, something he IS required to do in a 3 man defence and something he can avoid in a 2 man defence because he has more midfield options to give the ball to. In a 2 man defence he was brilliant vs Chelsea and wore Drogba like a glove, because it is something he is comfortable with

As for this shit defence, we have conceded the 3rd least amount of goals in the league this year, 2 more goals than the amazing Chelsea and 1 less goal than City. Yes a lot of that has to do with De Gea but the defence is the problem with the creativity we have in games and not actually defending. That spot should go to a midfielder, it fornicate us over using it on a 3rd defender

Now my biggest irk is with people saying were more vulnerable with a 2 man defence than a 3. I dont recall the supposed chances QPR created at the end of the game but I thought we were so much better equipped to a) cut out their attacks and b) attack on the counter attack with pace.

However under 3-5-2, there were periods of the game where we had 25+ passes and the 26th pass was still with the ball at the feet of Jones or Evans. So what exactly is the fornicate point? There was one passage of the play where we had 20 passes, and eventually a missed Jones pass ended up with Evans fornicate up (20 passes and the ball is still at our center backs) and with 2 (2!) passes, QPR had mustered a shot on goal that required a fornicate worldy of a save from De Gea. Not the first time this season. In fact this passage of play is the exact fornicate thing weve seen all season, it happened 8 times in one game vs Liverpool, and for further proof, look at the saves De Gea made against Arsenal and Southampton as well.

However there is a second passage of play in the game, which comes with us playing under 4-4-2, where it takes 8 passes, all of them forward and all of them positive, with center mids and full backs in the right fornicate position, that saw us create the goal. The ball eventually ended up with Rooney just outside the box (not with the ball at the feet of our centre backs 20 passes later) who played the ball to the overlapping full back (usually Rafael but in this case it was Valencia) and he played the cross into the CM making a late run into the box and he fired the ball home.

THAT is the United way. THAT is United football. NOT passing the ball between the fornicate center backs until one of them or De Gea has to boot a long ball to our forwards who are not equipped to play hold up football and bring the ball down against gorilla center backs. We play United football, not fornicate hoof ball

I admire LVG for wanting to implement his system and find a way to cover our flaws but IMO its doing the opposite. After seeing the 2 systems in action I would be fornicate flabbergasted (the use of such an extreme word is to highlight how fornicate ridiculous it would be) if we continued with this dire 3-5-2 and not go back to a 4 man defence system with Di Maria in the middle. Absolutely laughable if we dont. 3-5-2 has shown how fornicate poor it can be and how much better we play under a 4 man defence and it took 90 fornicate seconds to change the game against QPR. I dont see how anyone can argue against it and Id be fornicate amazed if LVG cant see the difference between the 2 and continues to use the 3-5-2.

Its time to go back to the United way of playing football

And heres the video of GNEV saying what I was trying to say

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


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Re: The 3-5-2 System

Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:16 am

There are similarities between Mourinhio's first season back in Chelsea. and LvG's first in United. Last season Mou's team was criticized for playing boring and he obviously put safety first, remember him coming here without a striker early in the season. He defended it with it being a period of transition, and he's need to be familiar with his squad and it's needs.

Even though LvG don't use the same 'excuses' it's obvious that he don't risk much, but rather choose the safer option, but still, keeping us in touch of that important CL-spot.

Both are among the best managers in the world, could be that they know best.


I will not complain if our man 'do' a Mourinhio and strengthens the team where needed this summer, and runs away with the title next season, playing some really good football on the way. But hey, that's me, forever the optimist



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Re: The 3-5-2 System

Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:34 am

_______________DDG_______________

____Smalling____Jones________Rojo___

Young__________ Blind__________Shaw
_____Herrera/Fellaini______Di maria____

________Falcao/RVP_____Rooney______

Still can't see how this won't work. Stick Mata in there and we slow down our attacking play which in essence is supposed to speed up! Use the right players in the right positions and we will dominate and score at will. Also we may have been forcing the issue with RVP, Falcao and Rooney in the same team thereby sacrificing some midfield industry. I would even go as far as using Nani over Fellaini and Herrera in that position. another issue is that the wing backs have not been used optimally to date which is something that is characteristic of this formation. 5 in midfield gives us many options in attack- you can play the short passing game through the middle or utilse the wing backs out wide and is a system where the midfield is not conceeded.

How many games have we seen where our best players including Ruud, Ronaldo, Rooney and the likes were reduced to spectators in Europen games especially. The team of the nineties IMO should have won many more CL trophies but they didn't due to poor tactics and formations. NOW, I have been a proponent of the 4-4-2 for years but we must also accept that football tactics evolve and yes I conceed our football is not thrilling at all. I'm not sure if Mata's race is run and indeed Carrick's if the Strootman rumours are to be believed but a 5 man midfield is the future because of the attacking intent it offers as well as the quick transitioning it allows from attack to defence. The system is being let down by the players.

Its clear to all that most of the players are not familiar with it and it requires true footballers who are comfortable on the ball and have football brains.

NB: I read somewhere that the defenders are supposed to carry the ball in this formation- IMO it is actually quiet the opposite- they should not carry the ball and should never relinquish there positions unless we get desperate and chase games. I cringe when I see Smalling run with the ball at his feet leaving a big gaping hole behind him!


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Re: The 3-5-2 System

Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:01 am

Van Gaal's adherance to this system when we can clearly win games when we have the opportunity to play a 4-4-2 diamond and struggle in a 3-5-2 is starting to get on my nerves. It's the same risk aversion we saw from Moyes, but a man strong enough to back it up


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Re: The 3-5-2 System

Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:14 pm

i wish we lose everytime we play this formation. it's the only thing that will force LVG to stop using it.i have never seen United play such a boring, dreadful and frustrating football. and that is saying a lot considering the shit we've seen under Moyes.



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Re: The 3-5-2 System

Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:32 pm

joze ruis wrote:i wish we lose everytime we play this formation. it's the only thing that will force LVG to stop using it.i have never seen United play such a boring, dreadful and frustrating football. and that is saying a lot considering the shit we've seen under Moyes.
We have a 1/3 win rate under this system. Thats bad enough

We also have the most long balls in the league and the least forward passes

It tells you all you need to know about this system


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Re: The 3-5-2 System

Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:03 pm

I stuck by Moyes longer than most because I hoped he would grow into the role and drop the negative play. Turned out he couldn't.

LVG embraces negative play, and seems to be defiant and stubbornly sticking to it. No potential for growth; it's his way or the highway.

Similarly with playing di Maria up front. He's been rubbish every time he's played there.


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Re: The 3-5-2 System

Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:18 pm

Leftbank wrote:I stuck by Moyes longer than most because I hoped he would grow into the role and drop the negative play. Turned out he couldn't.

LVG embraces negative play, and seems to be defiant and stubbornly sticking to it. No potential for growth; it's his way or the highway.

Similarly with playing di Maria up front. He's been rubbish every time he's played there.
LvG embraces negative play? Had you heard of him before he came to United? If you listen to his reasoning it's because he wants to create more space for the midfield so the can create more chances for the forwards. He is still experimenting with players and their positions because he hasn't had a lot of the players at his disposal for large parts of the season. We he completes his overhaul of the squad and gets to know some of the players better it will be a different looking team.


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