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Re: The General Election Thread

Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:54 pm

Maverick McKillshark wrote:
Leftbank wrote:It's the kind of stupid policy that shows a) they're more interested in ideological statements than getting things done and b) it grabs them headlines and attention but would never happen.
It's stupid to aim towards abolishing the monarchy?

Why?

I think it's a highly admirable goal and fair play to The Greens for standing up for what they believe in. They'll certainly have my vote.
Yes it is. There are far more important things to do right now than abolish the monarchy, and they do not consider the constitutional shit storrm that would follow. It's not a simple case of

Find: "King/Queen"
Replace: "President"

in the constitution.


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Re: The General Election Thread

Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:57 pm

Dante wrote:Heh, just had an email from the Greens, that included this:
No, we don’t have policies to put the Queen in a council house, to support terrorist organisations, or to enact an open door immigration policy over the next few years. We can expect smears like these and much worse to feature in the coming months as they attempt to put a lid on the unprecedented #GreenSurge.
Alsmost nothing about the Greens grabs headlines, because they focus on the boring stuff. The council house comment was a quip linking their policy of selling off the royal estates, and the building of more social housing. That's better for me than Farage's empty rhetoric.
Bennett: No crime to belong to Islamic State, Al-Qaeda or the IRA
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... say-greens" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I say it is. I don't think it's possible to be Islamic State (non-practising).

Farage is a big birth canal too.


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Re: The General Election Thread

Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:39 pm

Leftbank wrote:Yes it is. There are far more important things to do right now than abolish the monarchy, and they do not consider the constitutional shit storm that would follow. It's not a simple case of

Find: "King/Queen"
Replace: "President"

in the constitution.
So what if there are more important things? It's just one of a multitude of policies. Following your logic, parties would only have a single policy, because to have any more would mean they had policies which weren't the most important thing.

How are you supposing to know how much consideration they've given the matter?

For me I happen to think it is quite important, because the monarchy represents an archaic institute of assumed, extreme and entirely unnecessary wealth and power which the removal of would send a powerful message to the world's poor. Not everyone will agree, but I do, and so it's good to know that there's a political party out there which is willing to make a stand in this regard.


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Re: The General Election Thread

Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:58 pm

Maverick McKillshark wrote:
Leftbank wrote:Yes it is. There are far more important things to do right now than abolish the monarchy, and they do not consider the constitutional shit storm that would follow. It's not a simple case of

Find: "King/Queen"
Replace: "President"

in the constitution.
So what if there are more important things? It's just one of a multitude of policies. Following your logic, parties would only have a single policy, because to have any more would mean they had policies which weren't the most important thing.

How are you supposing to know how much consideration they've given the matter?

For me I happen to think it is quite important, because the monarchy represents an archaic institute of assumed, extreme and entirely unnecessary wealth and power which the removal of would send a powerful message to the world's poor. Not everyone will agree, but I do, and so it's good to know that there's a political party out there which is willing to make a stand in this regard.
That's not following my logic. To even have the policy in your platform at all is ridiculous. It should not even be in our sphere of consideration.

And I certainly disagree with your proposition. I'm more interested in dealing with the problems of British citizens than sending messages to the world's poor. The Monarchy does more good for Britain and the world than bad.


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Re: The General Election Thread

Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:13 pm

In your opinion, of course. Many don't share that opinion.

Personally I see monarchs as an outmoded symbol of unnecessarily extreme decadence and wealth and that every progressive state should be making efforts towards their removal if they have not done so already. I feel that it's something very important.
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Re: The General Election Thread

Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:15 pm

Symbols are powerful.

Again, policies come from the membership. I am a member. As such, I could put forward a proposal right now. It could be on literally anything I like. When you have 50,000 people, you'll probably find that some of them will think about things like this.

It is following your logic though. You said that there are far more important things. Taking that to it's logical conclusion, political parties should only deal with the most important things. That's what's ridiculous.


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Re: The General Election Thread

Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:23 pm

Leftbank wrote:I'm more interested in dealing with the problems of British citizens than sending messages to the world's poor.
The problems faced by British citizens are not endemic and their source is the very same as that of the problems faced by poor people the world over. That is, shockingly disproportionate distribution of wealth.

The British Monarchy is a very high-profile example of the problem we face as humans.


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Re: The General Election Thread

Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:04 pm

Stop trying to reductio ad absurdum. Being a politician means you have to prioritise your goals. Changing things takes time, you don't just turn up with your wishlist and then POOF it's done. I'm not saying parties shouldn't have ideas, I'm saying they should have the right priorities, and the greens clearly don't. You can see that in their management in Brighton. Rubbish piling up in the streets.

You seriously think a presidency would be cheaper than the monarchy? There'll be exactly the same pomp and circumstance, with a significant political operation to go along with it. The way to redistribute wealth is to pay fair wages, create jobs, help people save money, educate young people, improve trade, close tax loopholes and do whatever is possible to make sure people across the economy can earn, without standing on the backs of the poor to pull down the rich.


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Re: The General Election Thread

Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:21 pm

Ironically I agree with most of the Green party policies except for their environmental ones!! :P

(PS Im surprised Lefty hasnt mentioned zero/negative growth) ;)

As for the monarchy - I agree it is anachronistic and as a long-term goal they need replacing but:

(a) this is low priority stuff (agreeing with Lefty again!)

(b) they would need to be replaced by a Head of State who would still cost the nation a fortune unless it is thought through very carefully! I would aim for maybe the replacement with some sort of "CEO of Great Britain" by say 2050 who would be paid a wage like the PMs equivalent wage but thats it. All the royal lands, farms, castles, art galleries etc etc are returned to the nation without compensation (sic). No ongoing patronage, no hereditary nonsense.

(c) in the meantime the royal household is taxed in exactly the same way as the rest of us for the next 35 years..that should rake in a few billion!


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Re: The General Election Thread

Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:30 pm

Leftbank wrote:Stop trying to reductio ad absurdum.
Why?


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Re: The General Election Thread

Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:32 pm

Leftbank wrote:Changing things takes time, you don't just turn up with your wishlist and then POOF it's done.
Who said it wouldn't take time? Who said it's POOF and it's done?

That it's a long-term goal doesn't make it unimportant or unacceptable.
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Re: The General Election Thread

Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:34 pm

It's hardly a flagship policy though. It's just simply a policy. Lefty is talking rubbish in terms of priorities, because it's simply a thing in the policy sheet, not the very first thing to be done should the Greens ascend to power.

The funny thing here Lefty is that there are plenty of policies from the Greens that wouldn't be implemented on day one. They probably wouldn't even be implemented in the lifetime of a parliament, but the groundwork would be laid.


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Re: The General Election Thread

Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:27 am

I couldnt give a rats ass about the election.

I am from a country that terrorists are in government and there is more faffing about than united's midfield.

The UK is in a mess, whoever gets the power will plunge it into a deeper mess.

The one thing that really bothers me and needs sorted is the hospital's, the NHS is in turmoil - please whatever blood sucking verom gets the hot seat pump money into the NHS.


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Re: The General Election Thread

Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:44 am

Dante wrote:It's hardly a flagship policy though. It's just simply a policy. Lefty is talking rubbish in terms of priorities, because it's simply a thing in the policy sheet, not the very first thing to be done should the Greens ascend to power.

The funny thing here Lefty is that there are plenty of policies from the Greens that wouldn't be implemented on day one. They probably wouldn't even be implemented in the lifetime of a parliament, but the groundwork would be laid.
What about the other big constitutional issues? The West Lothian Question? The relationship with Europe? The unfair distribution of seats? The House of Lords? I'd say those issues are far more important. Where's the Green's position on that?


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Re: The General Election Thread

Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:55 am

Maverick McKillshark wrote:
Leftbank wrote:Stop trying to reductio ad absurdum.
Why?
Because it's a clumsy debating tool when you're more interested in making a straw man "Lefty thinks politicians should only think about one thing at a time" to the main point "a national debate on the monarchy is not what the country needs, or wants, right now"


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Re: The General Election Thread

Thu Jan 29, 2015 11:17 am

It was you suggested that the Green's policy on the monarchy was absurd because 'There are more important things to do right now.'

The implication is that you believe political parties ought to focus solely on what you think is The Important Thing and pay no consideration whatsoever to that which you do not believe to be quite as important. Or else, why state that the policy shouldn't exist due to its perceived relative unimportance? I'm not attacking the straw man because that's the argument you gave.

Out of interest, what qualifies you to speak for the nation in your assertion that a debate on the monarchy is 'Not what the country needs or wants right now'?


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Re: The General Election Thread

Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:00 pm

Maverick McKillshark wrote:It was you suggested that the Green's policy on the monarchy was absurd because 'There are more important things to do right now.'

The implication is that you believe political parties ought to focus solely on what you think is The Important Thing and pay no consideration whatsoever to that which you do not believe to be quite as important. Or else, why state that the policy shouldn't exist due to its perceived relative unimportance? I'm not attacking the straw man because that's the argument you gave.
I never said parties should only focus on 1 thing. But even in constitutional matters alone there are bigger fish to fry. See my post to Dante. Removing the monarchy would create more problems than it solves, and would take up manhours that could be devoted to other more noble causes.
Out of interest, what qualifies you to speak for the nation in your assertion that a debate on the monarchy is 'Not what the country needs or wants right now'?
What the country needs, I am a British subject and I am entitled to my views on what the country needs. I also work for an MP, and no constituent has ever called me up to say "the Monarchy is causing problems for me and other people in the country." Surely you can see all the other things that have a greater affect on people's daily lives that the politicians need to sort out before beginning a debate on the monarchy.

What the country wants, look at the opinion polls. Regularly around 75% support for the maintenance of the monarchy. The only poll I've seen indicating a majority support for republicanism was 2010, when people were most pissed off with everything. Then the support was only 54%, and 3% considered it a priority.


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Re: The General Election Thread

Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:22 pm

Leftbank wrote:
Dante wrote:It's hardly a flagship policy though. It's just simply a policy. Lefty is talking rubbish in terms of priorities, because it's simply a thing in the policy sheet, not the very first thing to be done should the Greens ascend to power.

The funny thing here Lefty is that there are plenty of policies from the Greens that wouldn't be implemented on day one. They probably wouldn't even be implemented in the lifetime of a parliament, but the groundwork would be laid.
What about the other big constitutional issues? The West Lothian Question? The relationship with Europe? The unfair distribution of seats? The House of Lords? I'd say those issues are far more important. Where's the Green's position on that?
You know that you could just look all of this up since Green policy is publicly available.

There is no direct policy on the West Lothian Question, but it would be partly covered by the policies on [url=http://=policy.greenparty.org.uk/pa.htm]Public Administration[/url]. More power would be shifted from central Government to local Government.

The Greens want to be in Europe, but change it.

The Greens propose electing MP's via the Additional Member System, which is used in Scottish and Welsh elections, and for the London Assembly. (PA304)

The Greens propose abolishing the House of Lords, and replacing it with a directly elected second chamber. (PA460)


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Re: The General Election Thread

Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:48 pm

I don't want Green Party cookies on my computer.


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Re: The General Election Thread

Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:58 pm

Really Lefty?


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Re: The General Election Thread

Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:15 pm

I know where my bread is buttered, and on who's success my job relies


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Re: The General Election Thread

Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:07 pm

Assuming you mean your work computer, are you really telling me that you can't look up the policies of other parties?


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Re: The General Election Thread

Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:44 pm

Dante wrote:Assuming you mean your work computer, are you really telling me that you can't look up the policies of other parties?
No, I'm just being petulant. I just don't take the Green Party seriously. I don't take any party outside of Labour and the Tories seriously. I think Green support will fall away under the new scrutiny they are under, or when the Lib Dems tack left as that is the only place left for them; their time as centrist pretenders is done.


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Re: The General Election Thread

Thu Jan 29, 2015 3:12 pm

You don't take any party outside the Tories and Labour seriously? I don't even know how to begin to respond to that. The Tories are only in power right now because of a party outside that view.


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Re: The General Election Thread

Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:17 pm

I took the Lib Dems seriously when they entered into the coalition in 2010. Now their time is done. They grasped the nettle, and were not strong enough to survive it's sting.

Even if we do have coalitions again in the future, Labour or the Tories will be the dominant party in the current paradigm. We still have the basis of a centrepetal system, and two Volkspartei that will always form the backbone of government.

Elections are won in the centre ground; the centre shifts, but you do not win elections in the UK by pandering to extremes. Tories and Labour exclusively are fighting over that ground. Lib Dems try and plant themselves in the centre, but that wasn't the source of their votes. They were also the protest party; the "we don't really like either of them so we'll go elsewhere to show it" vote, picking up votes scattergun across the moderate spectrum. But their time in government means they can no longer do that. That's why people are voting for UKIPs and Greens; they're more pissed off with politicians than ever!

Protest parties go in with their wishlists, but they will only ever get what the volkspartei are willing to give. Their main power is in obstruction. And that just makes the situation worse.

I think the Conservatives will remain the biggest party, but only just. If they can't hold a minority government, it's looking more and more likely there could be a Coalition of the Losers; Tories biggest party, but Labour gets into bed with the Lib Dems and Greens/Nationalists to put Miliband into power. The sheer nothingness that would result will almost guarantee a Tory majority under Boris Johnson or Teresa May in 2020


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