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treble99
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manchester united history

Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:57 am

Hello all
I have just stumbled into this forum and this is my first post.
I don't know if it is of any interest to you guys but if you are a bit bored you might like to take a look at

http://www.flickr.com/photos/63580000@N04/sets" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

the world's largest private Manchester United collection.

i try to add updates most days but as an old fool(i was around when the babes played) i work slowly and i am not very good with computers.

i hope you find something to interest and/or amuse you



Ole
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Re: manchester united history

Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:03 pm

Hi Ray, Welcome to the forum. We pride ourselves on our history sections and looking through your images, it's definitely an added asset.
We hope you'll stick around and contribute to the debates and teach us a thing or two!



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treble99
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Re: manchester united history

Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:57 pm

Thank you for your kind welcome.
I have been watching United for more than 50 years and collecting for about 40 of those.
What you are looking at if you view my flickr site is a loving and paintaking passion of my life.You can view items back to Newton Heath days.
Indeed there is a progarmme from a pre league friendly.
I have helped write many books and have thus been credited in many of them.
I supplied a large amount of my collection to The Opus which was the largest book ever written on the hisory of Manchester United.
I supplied all the memorabila in the video"The History of Manchester United"
Indeed at this moment Manchester United are considering a book with the title "Manchester United through 100 items"
As a child of th swinging sixties in Manchester i grew up with many of the Law,Best and Charlton era.
Indeed i take my friend Paddy Crerand to every United game.This is mostly as he is now a crabby old bastard and nobody else will travel with him.
He is however my friend.
If anybody has any memorabilia they wish to discuss or indeed have valued i will be happy to help.

Ray



Ole
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Re: manchester united history

Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:28 pm

Fantastic! Paddy is ace. He's taken a team at the Charity Challenge a couple of times at Carrington and really tells it how it is.

I'm sure you'll be able to tell some of the fans on here what it was like when United weren't as successful as they are now. Many of the younger members were born into success so to speak.



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Re: manchester united history

Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:29 pm

Wow Ray, seems like we've got a gem in here. Great to have someone like you around. Hope you stick around.

We used to have a couple of guys from your generation but they've not been in here for a while now.


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treble99
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Re: manchester united history

Tue Jun 26, 2012 4:41 pm

Happy to be around and happy to answer questions.
I'll let you guys set he agenda
Ask what you like anything from the late 1950's to present.
I go to most of the games home and away.
Also if people want to talk about memorabillia feel free to ask away.
I have the largest private Manchester United collection in the world which goes back to the 1880's and i help write books.



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Re: manchester united history

Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:37 pm

You have stuff from the 1880's :shock:

My favourite period of Uniteds history is (and Im rather rare in this) the 1900's! Uniteds first great team (Y)


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treble99
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Re: manchester united history

Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:53 am

Thank you for tour question.
I would like to direct you to my flickr page which is http://www.flickr.com/photos/63580000@N04/sets" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I would particularly ask you to look in the following sets

Season tickets-Here you will find a selection of season tickets covering the period from World War 1 to World War 2

History/Brochures-Here you will find the brochure from the Newton Heath bazaar in 1902.This was effectiively the start of Manchester United.
Newton Heath had been struggling financially for several years.They had a bazaar(a fair) to try to raise some cash.The captain of that time had a St Bernards dog which was walking round with a brandy barrel converted to a money box.
The dog strayed away and was found by a little girl who wanted to keep the dog.Her father told the Newton Heath club that if his daughter could keep the dog he would save the club although there were certain conditions one of which was a name change

Bank Street,Clayton-United's home ground from 1893 to 1910 when they moved to Old Trafford

Billy Meredith collection-United's(and City's) first superstar.He played with a toothpick sticking out of his mouth.He played until he was nearly 50 and i have been told stories by United players that he was still welcomed in the dressiing room in the 1950's where Matt Busby encouraged the younger players to sit and talk quietly to him before big games

Pre first world war-Some programmes from the era up to 1914

Postcards-Here you will find real photos that were converted to postcards as they did in this era about 1900.
You will find action photos from the 1909 FA Cup final including the only known photo of the winning goal.

George Stacey collection-George played in the 1909 FA Cup final and here you will find personal photos from the training before the Cup final at Blackpool

"Not many of these buggers about"-It does what it says on the tin and you will find a single card programme from Everton v Newton Heath from 1889.
Although Newton Heath was formed in 1878 there is very little known from this era.It was a recreational club really and played friendly games,challenge matches and local tournaments until theyjoined The Football Alliance in 1889/90 season.

I hope you enjoy what you see.
Please let us know



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Re: manchester united history

Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:39 am

very good. how did you get all of that?


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Re: manchester united history

Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:53 am

I just looked through most of the pictures you've got. Mind blown by some of it. Great collections Ray (Y)


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And Shankly said: “Why? Is Matt Busby packing it in?”

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treble99
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Re: manchester united history

Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:36 am

Thanks for your kind words.
I started collecting seriously 40 years ago.
As a young child i collected cigarette cards and football figures and the like and i had a few programmes that had been given to me and also i had kept the programmes and tickets of games that my father could afford to take me to.
As i grew older and discovered beer and women they disappered into the dustbin.
One day in my early 20's(so you are now mid 1940's) my grandmother passed away.It was my first encounter with death and i was feeling very low.
I was walking through the town centre of Bolton the following Sunday and as i passed the main hotel i saw a sign that stated "Programme Fair today".
I wandered in and found a box of United programmes from the 1960's of the style that i had once owned and were now in the dustbin.
In the 1960's United had an action photo from an earlier game.
My mind drifted back to the innocence and secuity of a child of say 12.Not a worry in the world eh.
I loved the programes and having spent a relatively small amount for a lot of programmes i took them home and read them and devoured all the information and brought back all the memories from the Law,Best and Charlton era.
I was hooked again.
By now i was working and regularly attended fairs and with my surplus cash i bought from both ends ie the cheap ones(lots) and the expensive ones(just a few).
I them had a stroke of luck which i still use to remind me to be nice.
A new work colleague was relocating from Derbyshire to Lancashire.
She had just gone through a divorce and didn't really have anybody to help her move.
I offered to drive the van she had hired.
I drove to derby and loaded up the van.I was just about to drive off when i noticed a large tea chest by the bins.
I asked her if she had forgotten something to which she informed me it was a box of Manchester United football programmes.
Her now deceased father in law,had been a sports journalist, and had given them to his son(her ex husband) who had no interest in football.
The house had been sold and she had cleared it all out.
These were for the bin.
Obviously i asked permission to take them and there was no reason why i couldn't have them so we loaded them into the van and left.
I spent all the rest of that day filling gaps and ticking boxes in the blanks in my collection.
I had a few programmes i knew nothing about so i took them the following day to a programme fair where i showed them to the local Manchester United collector.
A lot were declared as "very nice" and " valuable" but one was described as "doesn't exist""there was no programme poduced for that game"
The game in question was Sarajevo v Manchester United in the European cup 1967/68.
After years of reseach we discovered that the programme was given free to the press.
I have no idea how many were produced but it could only have been 50 or 100 and only a few will have survived.
Since then Sarajevo has been the subject of ethnic cleansing so nothing else is ever likely to come out.
I am aware that another 3 or 4 have surfaced over the years and one of these alledgedly sold for £15000 privately.

So moving on.
Many years ago i owned a wine bar and a lot of the United players visited.
I became very friendly with the likes of Bryan Robson,Norman Whiteside,Lou Macari,Paul McGrath,Frank Stapleton etc
I also had an interest in a charity called the Bryan Robson Scanner Appeal in which we raised £1m pounds to buy a machine to detect cancer in babies.
We were helped by the likes of Matt Busby and through Matt i met his "adopted son" Paddy Crerand.
Paddy and i are firm friends and we talk and/or meet daily.
If any of you have MUTV then Paddy is always talking about "ma friend Ray"
That is me.
Anyway through knowing these footballers i started to buy anything they wanted to sell.
They trusted me and i always gave a fair price which is more than the Manchester United museum did.
As my reputation and knowledge grew i became a valuer for all the leading auction houses and so it goes on.

Hope i haven't bored you but that's the bones of it



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Re: manchester united history

Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:05 pm

Don't worry, this is in no way boring. I might not agree with everything you've said in some of your other posts on the lounge but this type of history and background is great, particularly for someone who has only been able to follow United from afar.
Hope you will continue to post in this section (Y)


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"Maybe one day people will say I was another Ryan Giggs" - George Best

RedSte
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Re: manchester united history

Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:16 pm

I collected bits of things like this years ago too...difference is I never kept it (as I am not a hoarder unlike my wife) :oops:


My old man said be a City fan...

Nothing significant and lasting will ever come of FFP! - RedSte (2012)

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Re: manchester united history

Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:40 pm

That why she kept you Ste ;)


Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery;None but ourselves can free our minds.

"Eric Cantona is a great player, but he's not as good as Ryan Giggs" - Johan Cruyff

"Maybe one day people will say I was another Ryan Giggs" - George Best

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Re: manchester united history

Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:45 pm

LMAO


My old man said be a City fan...

Nothing significant and lasting will ever come of FFP! - RedSte (2012)

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Re: manchester united history

Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:51 pm

I've just realised that you're the chap who had an extension put on his house because you ran out of room for United stuff.


Image

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treble99
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Re: manchester united history

Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:22 am

and then an extension on an extension.
Wife is not happy about that.
then again she's not happy about much these days.
thinking about it i can say that she's not happy when she's happy(work that one out)!!

To Ste
Don't worry about not keeping "stuff"
In terms of the first team Munich was a watershed financially.Anything first team after Munich has minimal value.
There are a few exceptions and they are almost all oddball friendly programmes such as the tours to America in the 1960's.
Nobody followed them that far in the 60's.
Same in the 1970's and early 1980's.
They played pre season friendlies in America,Australia,Malaysia and Singapore.Very few lunatics went.

It was a bit like the present.
The Edwards family got greedy after United won the European cup in 1968.
They stopped putting in and started taking out.
The team went backwards.
It was slow at first but then the team got old and Law,Best,Charlton and Crerand hadn't been replaced so it went very quickly in the mid 1970's.
With Edwards at the helm doing what the Glazers are doing now the team went into the second division in 1973/74.They came straight back up in 1974/75 as the second division was very poor.
Unite had a few good players but most were average.
The only thing that kept them going was a massive fan base(again like now)It was usual to get 50,000 in the second division.
When they came back up the average position was 9th or 10th.The football was very average but Edwards only took out and wouldn't put back in so there was never any real money|(again like now)
Edwards even had a dodgy share issue and manipulated the club(again like now)

Basically he offered any existing shareholders the opportunity to buy at a reduced price an equal number of shares to what they already had.
As he was the majority shareholder he firstly doubled his stake at a reduced price.
Then he had a clause saying that if anybody else didn't take up the offer he could buy there's.
As a lot of the other shares were held by the likes of the families of the people who were killed at Munich and either didn't have any money,didn't know what was going on or just didn't care he got a further large portion of shares at a reduced price.
The police had a serious good look at it and although they knew it was dodgy they couldn't call it illegal.
Actually it was a greed move only(just to like todays owners.
Finally Granada TV did a programme showing that Edwards had made his money that he bought these shares with by selling dodgy,out of date,wrotten meat to schools.
He had a heart attack and died a month later.
With his son in charge and the money no longer being taken out United bought the likes of Robson,Wilkins,Stapleton and started winning things.
It is amazing what happens when you don't have greedy owners.
Martin Edwards didn't need the readies as he inherited what his father had already "made".
He was happy just looking under the toilet doors in the ladies toilet.But that's another story

Here endeth the history lesson of the 1970's/80's
And the moral of the story is
GET RID OF GREEDY OWNERS WHO ONLY TAKE
GET RID OF THE GLAZERS

ps At least Louis Edwards was a United fan.
I don't think the Glazers could find their way to OT from the airport of they didn't come in by helicopter.
Yep they even closed the Audi car park when the Glazers last came to Old Trafford so the helicopter could land
They watched United lose at home to City and then got the helicopter down to Wembley to watch Tampa Bay get their bums slapped
I would call that a bad sporting day but the Glazers probably saw it as a 77,000 paying crowd followed by an 85,000 paying crowd plus TV plus commercial rights so all in all a good day

By the way where is One United.
Still waiting for instructions!!



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Re: manchester united history

Sat Jun 30, 2012 9:40 pm

I must take issue with you on 1 point there Ray. The 74/75 team was my "first United team" and I object to you calling them average. Gordon Hill was my first football idol, closely followed by Steive Coppell, Pancho Pearson, Gerry Daly, Sammy Mac, Martin Buchan etc. The football we played that season (admittedly against generally poor teams) was thrilling all-out entertainment as Im sure you recall. Some of my happiest days watching United even though we were in Div 2 and certainly NOT winning trophies for fun. Happy days.


My old man said be a City fan...

Nothing significant and lasting will ever come of FFP! - RedSte (2012)

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treble99
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Re: manchester united history

Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:35 pm

As your first United team it must have been exciting.I agree.
i gave my season ticket up in protest at the end of 1973/74 and then went to more games in 1974/75 than i went to in 1973/74 just to see them win.
Full houses at Cardiff,Millwall,Norwich,Fulham,Portsmouthh in fact almost eveywhere and all away fans.
Carried on a wave of euphoria

75/76 was good as well.Cup fimalists and 3rd in the league
76/77-won the cup but 6th
Then Tommy Doc was found with his dick in his hand and
77/78-10th
78/79 9th
79/80 runners up
80/81 8th
overall average/good but not great.
Good enough to make you beieve but bad enough to win nothing



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treble99
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Re: manchester united history

Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:58 pm

I have just posted some interesting items onto my flickr page.
It is players contracts for Mark Jones and Geoff Bent for season 1956/57.
Both died on the plane on the way back from Munich.
They were paid £15 a week during the season and £12 a week out of season.
If they were ill they got sick money on the National Health and United just made up the money.
If they were called in the Army the contract was cancelled but United could retain the contract by giving them £1 a week.
The Glazers would love these "good old days"

http://www.flickr.com/photos/63580000@N04/sets" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



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Re: manchester united history

Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:36 pm

amazing stuff ray (Y)


My old man said be a City fan...

Nothing significant and lasting will ever come of FFP! - RedSte (2012)

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Re: manchester united history

Sun Jul 01, 2012 10:52 pm

They must have been rubbish in the summer then.


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Re: manchester united history

Sun Jul 01, 2012 11:16 pm

this still happens in county cricket today (apart from the elite players on central contracts)


My old man said be a City fan...

Nothing significant and lasting will ever come of FFP! - RedSte (2012)

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Re: manchester united history

Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:14 pm

Amazing stuff there.



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Re: manchester united history

Sat Nov 29, 2014 12:17 pm

Amazing stuff Ray. Do you know this guy, also a great collection.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/manchesterunitedman1/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



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